03-07-2019, 02:05 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2019, 02:44 AM by colt4548.)
introduction.
I just recently found this site, and while I have not read every article, I agreed with everything I read so far. Like the author of this site, I also struggled to build muscle in my 20's and never got very far. I did have the opportuity to train with a professional powerlifting coach who taught me a great deal and in 3 months improved my lifts beyond anything before, but still no real muscle. I have read and researched quite a bit about strength and muscle building. I do not pretend to be an expert in this subject, but I am able to discuss the subject at the basic level. For instance, I know the factors of muscular strength are: muscle mass, neuro-muscular efficiency, and tendon attachment points.
The main idea of my thread is the women. There are a significant number of female wrestlers, powerlifters, olympic lifters, and mma fighters who do feats of strength that can't be natural, (especially through my biases) yet they do not look it. To further illustrate this point, some of these ladies who "look" natural perform feats of strength beyond some of your "non-natty" men on this site. How can a natural woman be stronger than a juiced man? After viewing a youtube video where it was pointed out that some of the figure and bikini competitors are juicing, and their strength levels are nowhere near some of the ladies I will be presenting. So, I will ask the question natty or not?
My first lady is a 17 yr old high school student from Texas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uce_FOToGLE&t=73s
The video claims she, at age 17 bench pressed 425lbs and squatted 600 at a state meet. Since she is only 17 she could have had only been training for 4 yrs at the most. The last juicing Ms Olympia Iris Kyle cannot manage these lifts.
To put this in perspective. Bev Francis in 1982 was the strongest woman in the word with a bench of 335, and a squat of 425. Bev also has been training much longer than 4 yrs, and used to same steroid stack as Arnold and all the other men used at that time. ( just within the last few yrs it was discovered that women could get the same results with a less potent stack and avoid a lot of the steroid side effects)
So can a natural athlete, with only 4yrs training at the most, be stronger than known juicers with decades of training? Natty or not?
I'm amazed watching some of those female WWE wrestlers carrying huge male wrestlers.
It must be a combination of natural strength, proper technique and something else.
Wow bench press and squat with 8 inches range of motion so impressive.
"Wow she is going to have one lucky boyfriend or husband one day. To have such a powerful sexy strength goddess."
Lol at the description of the video. Now days the level ridiculousness is so high that you can't tell if some people are serious or just trolling.
03-07-2019, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2019, 06:47 PM by colt4548.)
(03-07-2019, 06:23 AM)Brett Wrote: She looks like a disgusting land whale. I think you have answered your own question though.
Although bev francis was on steroids she wasn't obese. Being so fat can help you lift more which is why this land whale can outlift bev. Both not natty.
Thankx for the input. But I do not believe her morbid obesity is one of the sources of her strength for just one anecdotal reason. I have a brother who is morbidly obese. He is 6'5 and 330, he cannot manage the lifts this teen has accomplished. He is also an ex military firefighter who was always in trouble for his weight. Not a very convincing rebuttal I know, but it is what I think
03-07-2019, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2019, 07:54 PM by colt4548.)
The next lady I wanted input on was the girl I should have started with Maryanna Naumova. She does not seem to be on any gear from outward appearances. Her Lifts are almost unbelievable if she did not do them at big venues like the Arnold. Some have criticised her technique, but my experiences with a powerlifting coach showed me they were normal in training. ( her arch is like some of the female COMPETITORS I trained around, going down to a block is a training technique my coach employed) In the vid she did use a bench shirt too. ( my coach told me a bench shirt is good for small increases)
So, a young girl barely out of puberty, not obese, no acne, not much muscle mass is doing lifts many natty men in their primes cannot equal.
Natty or not?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvepqm1NrJI
pic of her with what appears to be known juicer Dani Lyne Bailey
(03-07-2019, 07:00 PM)Brett Wrote: I didn't say her obesity was the reason for her strength alone. Did you even read what I said.
If you have to ask, then they probably on.
Again it sounds as if you are answering your own question with this second female. Are you looking for a single piece of evidence that renders all else irrelevant? If so, let me tell you, you will be searching for a long time.
Want my opinion? They use drugs. How do I 'know' this, because why wouldn't they?
Two teenage girls who can outlift most adult men. Let me ask you this, what do you want the answer to be?
I personally think it is a waste of ones time let this occupy your mind. There are things far more crucial for lack of a better word to concern yourself with.
Did you even read my post? I said ONE of the sources not all.
I have not been very articulate. My whole point was that the central theme of this website MIGHT be incorrect and needs to be re-thought. The theme, that the Fitness industry has lied to us. Natty men cannot achieve the the physique or the strength levels of the magazines and movies without gear. Yet I have given two examples of girls ( who if Natty), break those rules and destroy the theme here. If these girls can do it maybe we can too and were just training wrong. Maybe the fitness indutry has NOT lied to us. Is that not an idea worth exploring? Is this not a venue to explore that? These girls are simply the very best examples of this idea
If these girls are not Natty, then the stacks they are using are new with side effects we cannot see. Is that not useful information as well? Am I not trying ( and probably failing) socratic methods of debate?
There are always exceptions to every rule. Jeff Goldblum had a line in the first jurassic park that stuck with me. "life Always find a way" and maybe life is finding a way and we do not see it.
03-07-2019, 08:16 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2019, 12:22 AM by Hans.)
(03-07-2019, 07:19 PM)colt4548 Wrote: I have not been very articulate. My whole point was that the central theme of this website MIGHT be incorrect and needs to be re-thought. The theme, that the Fitness industry has lied to us. Natty men cannot achieve the the physique or the strength levels of the magazines and movies without gear. Yet I have given two examples of girls ( who if Natty), break those rules and destroy the theme here. If these girls can do it maybe we can too and were just training wrong. Maybe the fitness indutry has NOT lied to us. Is that not an idea worth exploring? Is this not a venue to explore that? These girls are simply the very best examples of this idea.
Bro, I appreciate your optimistic point of view here, but see how illogical your argument is: If those "girls" were natty, then there should be some female genetic freaks *on drugs* out there being able to beat them. But since the girls themselves are at the top, they must be those freaks (call it the "Omar Isuf argument" if you like ;)).
(03-07-2019, 08:16 PM)Hans Wrote: Bro, I appreciate your positive point of view here, but see how illogical your argument is: If those girls were natty, then there should be some genetic female freaks *on drugs* being able to beat them. But since they are at the top, they must be those freaks (call it the "Omar Isuf argument" if you like )
At the 2016 Arnolds Sports Festival she participated in the SSP Nutrition Pro Raw Bench competition. She lifted 110 kg and placed 3rd, but was later disqualified due to a positive doping test and suspended from lifting for two years.
03-08-2019, 02:22 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2019, 02:24 AM by colt4548.)
(03-07-2019, 08:16 PM)Hans Wrote: Bro, I appreciate your optimistic point of view here, but see how illogical your argument is: If those "girls" were natty, then there should be some female genetic freaks *on drugs* out there being able to beat them. But since the girls themselves are at the top, they must be those freaks (call it the "Omar Isuf argument" if you like ).
Actually there is a female with perfect genetics and juiced. The strongest women to have ever lived BECCA SWANSON.
Becca had openly admitted to juicing. Her records are: first woman to bench 600, 854 squat and a 683 Deadlift. She retired from bodybuilding/powerlifting in 2005. Her reasons for retirement were she wanted to be married and have children, she thought guys would not marry her because of her muscles and strength and her juicing would prevent her from having children.
She currently is married with 2 kids.
her pics with her children indicate she could still be tremedously strong even after juice and being retired for many yrs.
(03-08-2019, 12:36 AM)Jimbo Jones Wrote: Maryana Naumova wiki:
At the 2016 Arnolds Sports Festival she participated in the SSP Nutrition Pro Raw Bench competition. She lifted 110 kg and placed 3rd, but was later disqualified due to a positive doping test and suspended from lifting for two years.
yes and thank you, I did not know this till after I made my post
Dude, there is no natty woman who can even unrack 150 kg let alone push that weight. I don't understand what's your point, this is like arguing whether Ronnie Coleman is natural... Now, it seems to me that you are confused because some of those women don't have any obvious signs of virilization. But that doesn't mean anything, it's a genetic thing, some women will get deeper voice from a mild drug like anavar while others can take low doses of testosterone and don't get any masculine traits. It just depends how their bodies react.
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