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Fitness Industry Scams
#21
(11-15-2018, 02:14 PM)Brett Wrote:
(11-15-2018, 01:27 PM)jimjohnson Wrote: hmmm...i found this to be the most effective method for natties to get up to their potential. Still glad you "explained" the facts to us:
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Lastly, and probably the most ineffective method of them all for natties is Mentzers. The lift extremely heavy to failure once every week (although I think he took even longer breaks) for one or two working sets for very low reps utilising negatives and forced reps.

Good for you. I believed an article was even written by truth seeker on heavy duty training. Maybe you should look it up. Although that's not the reason for me listing it as ineffective. If the program worked for you, its because you weren't really following Mentzers full program as he did. Training a muscle group once a week can and does work, but that's not what I was referring too, nor what mentzer preached. He preached one working set to failure, perhaps once a week maybe longer for a bodypart. Maybe he did some warm ups (probably did), but it doesn't change the fact this method is not the "best" for naturals. That doesn't mean it can't get you to your genetic potential however.

Glad I could explain it to you again.


Ok so why wouldn't it work? If you are progressing why will it not build muscle?

No i do not follow any ones system...I just progressed and that required plenty of rest. I like to lift heavy rather than high volume. I say heavy as in relatively. I won;t be winning any strogngman competitions.

You say high volume, low volume, every day, once a week, split training does not work....so what DOES work in your opinion? What is left?
Reply
#22
(11-16-2018, 03:05 PM)jimjohnson Wrote:
(11-15-2018, 02:14 PM)Brett Wrote:
(11-15-2018, 01:27 PM)jimjohnson Wrote: hmmm...i found this to be the most effective method for natties to get up to their potential. Still glad you "explained" the facts to us:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, and probably the most ineffective method of them all for natties is Mentzers. The lift extremely heavy to failure once every week (although I think he took even longer breaks) for one or two working sets for very low reps utilising negatives and forced reps.

Good for you. I believed an article was even written by truth seeker on heavy duty training. Maybe you should look it up. Although that's not the reason for me listing it as ineffective. If the program worked for you, its because you weren't really following Mentzers full program as he did. Training a muscle group once a week can and does work, but that's not what I was referring too, nor what mentzer preached. He preached one working set to failure, perhaps once a week maybe longer for a bodypart. Maybe he did some warm ups (probably did), but it doesn't change the fact this method is not the "best" for naturals. That doesn't mean it can't get you to your genetic potential however.

Glad I could explain it to you again.


Ok so why wouldn't it work? If you are progressing why will it not build muscle?

No i do not follow any ones system...I just progressed and that required plenty of rest. I like to lift heavy rather than high volume. I say heavy as in relatively. I won;t be winning any strogngman competitions.

You say high volume, low volume, every day, once a week, split training does not work....so what DOES work in your opinion? What is left?

I used to change my program often, but for the last two years I have just been using:

Mon: legs/abs/ traps/posterior delts
Tue: push and pull
Wed: rest (neck planks and neck bridges)
Thur: legs/abs/traps/medial delts
Fri: pull and push
Weekend off (sat: neck planks and bridges)

I have reached atleast 85% of my genetic limit years ago, I just like the frequency and i have found its a routine that works quite well for the long term (it doesn't burn me out and it allows ample time for recovery)

However, my workout is nothing special I'll admit. I really meant the the workouts of the pros don't build the physiques presented and are sucky for naturals. Any rep range does cause hypertrophy, and using (as you do) a pros workout for its template but incorporating other variables that suit your body better will work. For example, taking frank zanes routine but only doing deadlifts once every two cycles would probably help a natural recover alot. 

However in my experience going very high (20+) or using low reps (1-3) doesn't work as well for reaching your genetic potential as perhaps reps in the middle ground. Each muscle group is different aswell with what works better, for example hamstrings would love 1-3 reps while calves wouldnt, but would respond better to 20+ reps while hamstrings wouldn't.
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#23
ok....understood.

so for 1-3 reps is great for strength but not ideal for muscle growth?

What about static hold 20-30 sec's? I mean the reason we do say 7 reps is so we actually hold the wight for about 30 sec's right? So why not simply hold it is the optimal position for 30 sec's?

I like the physiques of guys Like Sandow, Aston, the old time strongmen. + it's nice to at least be stronger than average Joe of you actually lift weights. I do find it funny some of these huge body builders that are no stronger than average Joe...
Reply
#24
(11-17-2018, 09:44 PM)jimjohnson Wrote: ok....understood.

so for 1-3 reps is great for strength but not ideal for muscle growth?

What about static hold 20-30 sec's? I mean the reason we do say 7 reps is so we actually hold the wight for about 30 sec's right? So why not simply hold it is the optimal position for 30 sec's?

I like the physiques of guys Like Sandow, Aston, the old time strongmen. + it's nice to at least be stronger than average Joe of you actually lift weights. I do find it funny some of these huge body builders that are no stronger than average Joe...

If I knew the secret and what is ideal for muscle growth I wouldn't be natural.

Bro, (pause), if you want to do half reps with your 1/4 rep max dumbbell, then do it. You can do negatives, half reps, Dixie reps, banana curls etc. I'm not going to defend any method of training. Fuck all the methods.

All I was stating earlier is that frequency and volume have a inverse relationship and getting the combination right for your body will just mean you reach your genetic potential faster instead of burning yourself out to a pros routine that either has way too much volume, too little or just utilises light weights with no progressive overload

Have a great day.
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#25
(11-16-2018, 03:05 PM)jimjohnson Wrote:
(11-15-2018, 02:14 PM)Brett Wrote:
(11-15-2018, 01:27 PM)jimjohnson Wrote: hmmm...i found this to be the most effective method for natties to get up to their potential. Still glad you "explained" the facts to us:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, and probably the most ineffective method of them all for natties is Mentzers. The lift extremely heavy to failure once every week (although I think he took even longer breaks) for one or two working sets for very low reps utilising negatives and forced reps.

Good for you. I believed an article was even written by truth seeker on heavy duty training. Maybe you should look it up. Although that's not the reason for me listing it as ineffective. If the program worked for you, its because you weren't really following Mentzers full program as he did. Training a muscle group once a week can and does work, but that's not what I was referring too, nor what mentzer preached. He preached one working set to failure, perhaps once a week maybe longer for a bodypart. Maybe he did some warm ups (probably did), but it doesn't change the fact this method is not the "best" for naturals. That doesn't mean it can't get you to your genetic potential however.

Glad I could explain it to you again.


Ok so why wouldn't it work? If you are progressing why will it not build muscle?

No i do not follow any ones system...I just progressed and that required plenty of rest. I like to lift heavy rather than high volume. I say heavy as in relatively. I won;t be winning any strogngman competitions.

You say high volume, low volume, every day, once a week, split training does not work....so what DOES work in your opinion? What is left?

According to a large number of studies done by dr brad schoenfeld, in order to maximize your muscle gain potential as a natural, and even as a half natty (half natty means mild steroid use) you need high frequency, moderate volume and low to moderate intensity.  The reason behind this is due to the fact that MPS (muscle protein synthesis) lasts for about 28-48 maybe at the most 72 hours (but 28-48 is closer to reality,though nothing is set in stone here) . Brad shoenfeld has also stated that you need at the very least 10 sets per muscle group in order to fully stimulate the muscles and disrupt the homeostasis. He says that to get the most amount of MPS you need to workout at least 3 times a week, preferably by doing full body workouts. This type of working out allows you to recover at a good pace so you can push yourself each workout.

So lets say we take 2 hypothetical guys.We will call them lifter A and lifter B. Lifter A does the classic split type workout, chest day, arms day,back day etc. He stimulates MPS once maybe twice a week but due to the nature of split workouts he has to go every day in the gym and workout 1 specific muscle group.


Well here is the problem n1, your body is not a stack of legos. If you workout chest on monday, you workout your triceups,shoulders, and a tiny fraction of your back (if you know how to bench properly) So Tuesday comes, and its back day. He works out his back, but here we have another issue. Back exercises, work your posterior chain, pull-ups work your chest and triceups (if done properly and by properly i mean full range of motion up-down). Then comes wednesday, he has legs. He has already tired his posterior chain muscles, so he wont be able to squat as much. Which leads to low volume in legs. Say hello to chicken legs in 1 year. Thing is, muscles are interconnected with each other, so if you have a total low volume your body wont grow as fast. I could go on and on, but this will be too long to read Big Grin Long story short, this guy stimulates MPS once a week, maybe twice by a very small chance, and he is missing out potential growth.To give you a perspective, he gets 2 growth windows every week (and i am being very generous here), which translates to 8 growth windows a month or 96 in a year . The outcome? He does not grow much, and what could have been achieved in a year may take him 2 years maybe more.


Lets go to lifter B. He goes to the gym 3 days (at least) and does full body workouts. He has great recovery, and stimulates MPS every 48 hours in each muscle group consistently. Thats 3 growth windows he gets every week. Which translate to 12 GW (growth windows) a month, and 144 a year. You do the math, and calculate how much growth both of them will have in 5 years ahead.

Lifter A => 480GW
Lifter B => 720GW

Lifter B has almost twice the amount of GW of lifter A. Can you imagine what that means in muscle gain? If those guys where to compete in a sport, lifter A may never be able to reach the level of lifter B by now, unless he uses a proper program and by now only steroids could help him catch up with lifter B (but if lifter B uses steroids aswel then its a lost battle)
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#26
(11-20-2018, 11:49 AM)khrazz Wrote:
(11-16-2018, 03:05 PM)jimjohnson Wrote:
(11-15-2018, 02:14 PM)Brett Wrote:
(11-15-2018, 01:27 PM)jimjohnson Wrote: hmmm...i found this to be the most effective method for natties to get up to their potential. Still glad you "explained" the facts to us:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, and probably the most ineffective method of them all for natties is Mentzers. The lift extremely heavy to failure once every week (although I think he took even longer breaks) for one or two working sets for very low reps utilising negatives and forced reps.

Good for you. I believed an article was even written by truth seeker on heavy duty training. Maybe you should look it up. Although that's not the reason for me listing it as ineffective. If the program worked for you, its because you weren't really following Mentzers full program as he did. Training a muscle group once a week can and does work, but that's not what I was referring too, nor what mentzer preached. He preached one working set to failure, perhaps once a week maybe longer for a bodypart. Maybe he did some warm ups (probably did), but it doesn't change the fact this method is not the "best" for naturals. That doesn't mean it can't get you to your genetic potential however.

Glad I could explain it to you again.


Ok so why wouldn't it work? If you are progressing why will it not build muscle?

No i do not follow any ones system...I just progressed and that required plenty of rest. I like to lift heavy rather than high volume. I say heavy as in relatively. I won;t be winning any strogngman competitions.

You say high volume, low volume, every day, once a week, split training does not work....so what DOES work in your opinion? What is left?

According to a large number of studies done by dr brad schoenfeld, in order to maximize your muscle gain potential as a natural, and even as a half natty (half natty means mild steroid use) you need high frequency, moderate volume and low to moderate intensity.  The reason behind this is due to the fact that MPS (muscle protein synthesis) lasts for about 28-48 maybe at the most 72 hours (but 28-48 is closer to reality,though nothing is set in stone here) . Brad shoenfeld has also stated that you need at the very least 10 sets per muscle group in order to fully stimulate the muscles and disrupt the homeostasis. He says that to get the most amount of MPS you need to workout at least 3 times a week, preferably by doing full body workouts. This type of working out allows you to recover at a good pace so you can push yourself each workout.

So lets say we take 2 hypothetical guys.We will call them lifter A and lifter B. Lifter A does the classic split type workout, chest day, arms day,back day etc. He stimulates MPS once maybe twice a week but due to the nature of split workouts he has to go every day in the gym and workout 1 specific muscle group.


Well here is the problem n1, your body is not a stack of legos. If you workout chest on monday, you workout your triceups,shoulders, and a tiny fraction of your back (if you know how to bench properly) So Tuesday comes, and its back day. He works out his back, but here we have another issue. Back exercises, work your posterior chain, pull-ups work your chest and triceups (if done properly and by properly i mean full range of motion up-down). Then comes wednesday, he has legs. He has already tired his posterior chain muscles, so he wont be able to squat as much. Which leads to low volume in legs. Say hello to chicken legs in 1 year. Thing is, muscles are interconnected with each other, so if you have a total low volume your body wont grow as fast. I could go on and on, but this will be too long to read Big Grin Long story short, this guy stimulates MPS once a week, maybe twice by a very small chance, and he is missing out potential growth.To give you a perspective, he gets 2 growth windows every week (and i am being very generous here), which translates to 8 growth windows a month or 96 in a year . The outcome? He does not grow much, and what could have been achieved in a year may take him 2 years maybe more.


Lets go to lifter B. He goes to the gym 3 days (at least) and does full body workouts. He has great recovery, and stimulates MPS every 48 hours in each muscle group consistently. Thats 3 growth windows he gets every week. Which translate to 12 GW (growth windows) a month, and 144 a year. You do the math, and calculate how much growth both of them will have in 5 years ahead.

Lifter A => 480GW
Lifter B => 720GW

Lifter B has almost twice the amount of GW of lifter A. Can you imagine what that means in muscle gain? If those guys where to compete in a sport, lifter A may never be able to reach the level of lifter B by now, unless he uses a proper program and by now only steroids could help him catch up with lifter B (but if lifter B uses steroids aswel then its a lost battle)

While I agree with most of what you say, nothing is a 'law' when it comes to building muscle. 

The only point I really disagree on is where you say that a person hitting each muscle group twice a week will not reach their full genetic potential (because they not doing it three times a week).

I train my traps on Monday (directly), Tuesday (indirectly), thursday (directly) and Friday (indirectly). They never feel overtrained and are becoming one of my best body parts. According to Dr... My traps should be getting smaller from overtraining. I aslo train my forearms indirectly on the same days I do traps. I have favourable genetics for traps however, which is why they are responding, if I didn't, no amount of training would matter. 

My chest has always been a strong body part .I train it with two push days a week (and I guess it gets some small stimulation from pullups on my two other pull days but its minimal). Although back in college I remember I only used to train it once a week, and it never got smaller, it just remained the same size (fairly big for a skinny natural).

At the moment I only train biceps directly once a week and indirectly twice a week (triceps twice). My arms have been between 39cm - 41cm (40cm at the moment) for the last 5 years. I've been in the bodybuilding game for too long to know that training them three times a week won't make a measurable difference (not if I want to stay lean). I started lifting weights when I was about 10-13 (I forget, but I do know the first exercise I ever did were dumbbell curls with my dads old dumbbells, which I still use today) but my point being its been a long time and I've tried everything.

Sometimes the best thing you can do is just accept your body for what it is and stop obsessing over the perfect amount of reps and sets and frequency. There is no getting beyond your genetics. We can argue until we blue in the face, but sooner or later your gains will drastically slow down on a full body (3 times a week program) just like they would on any other program, and then you might reconsider training each muscle group less times a week for your own mental health (unless you enjoy it and the muscle responds well to it like traps to me).
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#27
(11-20-2018, 12:32 PM)Brett Wrote: While I agree with most of what you say, nothing is a 'law' when it comes to building muscle. 

The only point I really disagree on is where you say that a person hitting each muscle group twice a week will not reach their full genetic potential (because they not doing it three times a week).

I train my traps on Monday (directly), Tuesday (indirectly), thursday (directly) and Friday (indirectly). They never feel overtrained and are becoming one of my best body parts. According to Dr... My traps should be getting smaller from overtraining. I aslo train my forearms indirectly on the same days I do traps. I have favourable genetics for traps however, which is why they are responding, if I didn't, no amount of training would matter. 

My chest has always been a strong body part .I train it with two push days a week (and I guess it gets some small stimulation from pullups on my two other pull days but its minimal). Although back in college I remember I only used to train it once a week, and it never got smaller, it just remained the same size (fairly big for a skinny natural).

At the moment I only train biceps directly once a week and indirectly twice a week (triceps twice). My arms have been between 39cm - 41cm (40cm at the moment) for the last 5 years. I've been in the bodybuilding game for too long to know that training them three times a week won't make a measurable difference (not if I want to stay lean). I started lifting weights when I was about 10-13 (I forget, but I do know the first exercise I ever did were dumbbell curls with my dads old dumbbells, which I still use today) but my point being its been a long time and I've tried everything.

Sometimes the best thing you can do is just accept your body for what it is and stop obsessing over the perfect amount of reps and sets and frequency. There is no getting beyond your genetics. We can argue until we blue in the face, but sooner or later your gains will drastically slow down on a full body (3 times a week program) just like they would on any other program, and then you might reconsider training each muscle group less times a week for your own mental health (unless you enjoy it and the muscle responds well to it like traps to me).

I did not say you wont reach your genetic max. All i said was that it will take twice as long, or maybe even more . Does it matter if you just want to be healthy and fit? Not really. It only matters for people who wish to maximize their gains for their personal improvement or for their athletic endeavors.

By the way, full body has its drawbacks also. Its very tiring especially when the total workload increases and there are a lot of compound movements and very few isolation movements.

I have found that full body 3 times a week works best for building general fitness and increasing your work capacity. Its also great for cutting, cause you get 4 days off from training and can focus more on cardio/rest. Obviously, full body is nothing magical and you wont get steroid like results. Its just a different training method to follow.

At the end of the day, all roads lead to Rome. Some might get you faster there some might get you slower.
Reply
#28
(11-20-2018, 04:28 PM)khrazz Wrote:
(11-20-2018, 12:32 PM)Brett Wrote: While I agree with most of what you say, nothing is a 'law' when it comes to building muscle. 

The only point I really disagree on is where you say that a person hitting each muscle group twice a week will not reach their full genetic potential (because they not doing it three times a week).

I train my traps on Monday (directly), Tuesday (indirectly), thursday (directly) and Friday (indirectly). They never feel overtrained and are becoming one of my best body parts. According to Dr... My traps should be getting smaller from overtraining. I aslo train my forearms indirectly on the same days I do traps. I have favourable genetics for traps however, which is why they are responding, if I didn't, no amount of training would matter. 

My chest has always been a strong body part .I train it with two push days a week (and I guess it gets some small stimulation from pullups on my two other pull days but its minimal). Although back in college I remember I only used to train it once a week, and it never got smaller, it just remained the same size (fairly big for a skinny natural).

At the moment I only train biceps directly once a week and indirectly twice a week (triceps twice). My arms have been between 39cm - 41cm (40cm at the moment) for the last 5 years. I've been in the bodybuilding game for too long to know that training them three times a week won't make a measurable difference (not if I want to stay lean). I started lifting weights when I was about 10-13 (I forget, but I do know the first exercise I ever did were dumbbell curls with my dads old dumbbells, which I still use today) but my point being its been a long time and I've tried everything.

Sometimes the best thing you can do is just accept your body for what it is and stop obsessing over the perfect amount of reps and sets and frequency. There is no getting beyond your genetics. We can argue until we blue in the face, but sooner or later your gains will drastically slow down on a full body (3 times a week program) just like they would on any other program, and then you might reconsider training each muscle group less times a week for your own mental health (unless you enjoy it and the muscle responds well to it like traps to me).

I did not say you wont reach your genetic max. All i said was that it will take twice as long, or maybe even more . Does it matter if you just want to be healthy and fit? Not really. It only matters for people who wish to maximize their gains for their personal improvement or for their athletic endeavors.

By the way, full body has its drawbacks also. Its very tiring especially when the total workload increases and there are a lot of compound movements and very few isolation movements.

I have found that full body 3 times a week works best for building general fitness and increasing your work capacity. Its also great for cutting, cause you get 4 days off from training and can focus more on cardio/rest. Obviously, full body is nothing magical and you wont get steroid like results. Its just a different training method to follow.

At the end of the day, all roads lead to Rome. Some might get you faster there some might get you slower.

Okay I feel you, I must of misinterpreted that part. However, to be fair, as a natural we only have so much muscle we can put on. So why rush to get it all in say 3 years and then make no more gains after that (except some strenght). Why not just train moderately (any half decent program a natty will make noob gains on for the first year atleaset as long as the nutrition and sleep is adequate) and then have something to work towards over the next couple of years. 

In the beginning we all want gains as fast as possible, but once we close to our max, we all kinda wish we still had some gains to make, if you know what I mean Smile
Reply
#29
(11-20-2018, 04:41 PM)Brett Wrote:
(11-20-2018, 04:28 PM)khrazz Wrote:
(11-20-2018, 12:32 PM)Brett Wrote: While I agree with most of what you say, nothing is a 'law' when it comes to building muscle. 

The only point I really disagree on is where you say that a person hitting each muscle group twice a week will not reach their full genetic potential (because they not doing it three times a week).

I train my traps on Monday (directly), Tuesday (indirectly), thursday (directly) and Friday (indirectly). They never feel overtrained and are becoming one of my best body parts. According to Dr... My traps should be getting smaller from overtraining. I aslo train my forearms indirectly on the same days I do traps. I have favourable genetics for traps however, which is why they are responding, if I didn't, no amount of training would matter. 

My chest has always been a strong body part .I train it with two push days a week (and I guess it gets some small stimulation from pullups on my two other pull days but its minimal). Although back in college I remember I only used to train it once a week, and it never got smaller, it just remained the same size (fairly big for a skinny natural).

At the moment I only train biceps directly once a week and indirectly twice a week (triceps twice). My arms have been between 39cm - 41cm (40cm at the moment) for the last 5 years. I've been in the bodybuilding game for too long to know that training them three times a week won't make a measurable difference (not if I want to stay lean). I started lifting weights when I was about 10-13 (I forget, but I do know the first exercise I ever did were dumbbell curls with my dads old dumbbells, which I still use today) but my point being its been a long time and I've tried everything.

Sometimes the best thing you can do is just accept your body for what it is and stop obsessing over the perfect amount of reps and sets and frequency. There is no getting beyond your genetics. We can argue until we blue in the face, but sooner or later your gains will drastically slow down on a full body (3 times a week program) just like they would on any other program, and then you might reconsider training each muscle group less times a week for your own mental health (unless you enjoy it and the muscle responds well to it like traps to me).

I did not say you wont reach your genetic max. All i said was that it will take twice as long, or maybe even more . Does it matter if you just want to be healthy and fit? Not really. It only matters for people who wish to maximize their gains for their personal improvement or for their athletic endeavors.

By the way, full body has its drawbacks also. Its very tiring especially when the total workload increases and there are a lot of compound movements and very few isolation movements.

I have found that full body 3 times a week works best for building general fitness and increasing your work capacity. Its also great for cutting, cause you get 4 days off from training and can focus more on cardio/rest. Obviously, full body is nothing magical and you wont get steroid like results. Its just a different training method to follow.

At the end of the day, all roads lead to Rome. Some might get you faster there some might get you slower.

Okay I feel you, I must of misinterpreted that part. However, to be fair, as a natural we only have so much muscle we can put on. So why rush to get it all in say 3 years and then make no more gains after that (except some strenght). Why not just train moderately (any half decent program a natty will make noob gains on for the first year atleaset as long as the nutrition and sleep is adequate) and then have something to work towards over the next couple of years. 

In the beginning we all want gains as fast as possible, but once we close to our max, we all kinda wish we still had some gains to make, if you know what I mean Smile

Agreed....some serious bro science coming out now...

And what if you are at the genetic potential? Once a week Maintenance is all you need then right? I mean...once you hit the ceiling no amount of extra work will do anything...

How do you know how far off your "potential" you are anyway?

My advice..just lift some weights 2x week...focus on nutrition/diet.
Reply
#30
(11-21-2018, 01:25 PM)jimjohnson Wrote:
(11-20-2018, 04:41 PM)Brett Wrote:
(11-20-2018, 04:28 PM)khrazz Wrote:
(11-20-2018, 12:32 PM)Brett Wrote: While I agree with most of what you say, nothing is a 'law' when it comes to building muscle. 

The only point I really disagree on is where you say that a person hitting each muscle group twice a week will not reach their full genetic potential (because they not doing it three times a week).

I train my traps on Monday (directly), Tuesday (indirectly), thursday (directly) and Friday (indirectly). They never feel overtrained and are becoming one of my best body parts. According to Dr... My traps should be getting smaller from overtraining. I aslo train my forearms indirectly on the same days I do traps. I have favourable genetics for traps however, which is why they are responding, if I didn't, no amount of training would matter. 

My chest has always been a strong body part .I train it with two push days a week (and I guess it gets some small stimulation from pullups on my two other pull days but its minimal). Although back in college I remember I only used to train it once a week, and it never got smaller, it just remained the same size (fairly big for a skinny natural).

At the moment I only train biceps directly once a week and indirectly twice a week (triceps twice). My arms have been between 39cm - 41cm (40cm at the moment) for the last 5 years. I've been in the bodybuilding game for too long to know that training them three times a week won't make a measurable difference (not if I want to stay lean). I started lifting weights when I was about 10-13 (I forget, but I do know the first exercise I ever did were dumbbell curls with my dads old dumbbells, which I still use today) but my point being its been a long time and I've tried everything.

Sometimes the best thing you can do is just accept your body for what it is and stop obsessing over the perfect amount of reps and sets and frequency. There is no getting beyond your genetics. We can argue until we blue in the face, but sooner or later your gains will drastically slow down on a full body (3 times a week program) just like they would on any other program, and then you might reconsider training each muscle group less times a week for your own mental health (unless you enjoy it and the muscle responds well to it like traps to me).

I did not say you wont reach your genetic max. All i said was that it will take twice as long, or maybe even more . Does it matter if you just want to be healthy and fit? Not really. It only matters for people who wish to maximize their gains for their personal improvement or for their athletic endeavors.

By the way, full body has its drawbacks also. Its very tiring especially when the total workload increases and there are a lot of compound movements and very few isolation movements.

I have found that full body 3 times a week works best for building general fitness and increasing your work capacity. Its also great for cutting, cause you get 4 days off from training and can focus more on cardio/rest. Obviously, full body is nothing magical and you wont get steroid like results. Its just a different training method to follow.

At the end of the day, all roads lead to Rome. Some might get you faster there some might get you slower.

Okay I feel you, I must of misinterpreted that part. However, to be fair, as a natural we only have so much muscle we can put on. So why rush to get it all in say 3 years and then make no more gains after that (except some strenght). Why not just train moderately (any half decent program a natty will make noob gains on for the first year atleaset as long as the nutrition and sleep is adequate) and then have something to work towards over the next couple of years. 

In the beginning we all want gains as fast as possible, but once we close to our max, we all kinda wish we still had some gains to make, if you know what I mean Smile

Agreed....some serious bro science coming out now...

And what if you are at the genetic potential? Once a week Maintenance is all you need then right? I mean...once you hit the ceiling no amount of extra work will do anything...

How do you know how far off your "potential" you are anyway?

My advice..just lift some weights 2x week...focus on nutrition/diet.

You will now when after 5+ years you look exactly the same but you training harder than ever. 

2x is plenty. Although back can take a beating (4x)

Legs can handle 3x as well but not necessary.

1x week perfect for maintenance. I trained my neck today after about a week off from bridges and neck planks. Neck is even stronger since last workout.
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