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Lean Gains?
#11
^^ I go with this^^ you have a natural limit everyone does give or take +/- 10%
Again Sandow....was stronger than everyone here and probably was lifting at about 14. He also trained for hypertrophy (for the women to admire him)....yet look at his physique. Not huge at all. Juicers are way bigger than him. That to me is the natural limit whether you lift at 8 or 38
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#12
(11-26-2018, 03:00 PM)jimjohnson Wrote: ^^ I go with this^^ you have a natural limit everyone does give or take +/- 10%
Again Sandow....was stronger than everyone here and probably was lifting at about 14. He also trained for hypertrophy (for the women to admire him)....yet look at his physique. Not huge at all. Juicers are way bigger than him. That to me is the natural limit whether you lift at 8 or 38

But what about the "advancement" of nutrition and the 5x5 method?  Smile
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#13
(11-27-2018, 10:31 AM)TruthSeeker Wrote:
(11-26-2018, 03:00 PM)jimjohnson Wrote: ^^ I go with this^^ you have a natural limit everyone does give or take +/- 10%
Again Sandow....was stronger than everyone here and probably was lifting at about 14. He also trained for hypertrophy (for the women to admire him)....yet look at his physique. Not huge at all. Juicers are way bigger than him. That to me is the natural limit whether you lift at 8 or 38

But what about the "advancement" of nutrition and the 5x5 method?  Smile

Clearly Sandow practised 5x5's. Maybe he was the father of that Holy Method? Hence why he was sooo strong. All hail the 5x5 method
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#14
ok, you guys missed my point Big Grin 

Let me start from the beginning,

Lets say a guy, we will call him guy A, starts playing sports at the age of 9, and by the age of 14 he has started working out in the gym also, all the way up to 20 (for the purpose of my point here) . All these years he has put in the work, had a good nutrition and proper sleep.
Now we go to guy B. He did not play sports from a young age, he was kinda chubby as a kid and as a teenager he was still chubby , because of gaming all day, eating crappy food and loss of sleep due to gaming marathons. At the age of 20, he suddenly wakes up one day, and sees a huge belly and says to himself, boy i need to get in shape.

What happens next? Well here is the thing, he joins the same gym guy A is. They are at the same age.  Do you believe, guy B is going to reach the level of guy A in lets say, 2 years mark?

Lets take it step by step, guy A has put in a decade of work into his body. Btw, i consider good nutrition, proper sleep AND training as "putting in the work", and not only proper training here.
Guy B on the other hand, has zero work into his body up until now. His body was constantly overfed with proceesed carbs, very low protein and lots of sweeteners . His insulin sensitivity, is most likely not optimal hence the beer belly. Poor sleep scedule may also have hurt his hormonal profile a bit. Guy B, is going to spend almost 12 months getting rid of his beer belly. That will leave him with the classic look, skinny fat, due to bad nutrition he has had all these years. Now he has to increase his muscle mass in order to get rid of the skinny fat look. Well assuming he follows a proper strength training program and not fluff and pump that could take him almost 3 years to do, maybe 5-6.
So, almost a decade is all he needs in order for him "look like he lifts". Thats assuming that he is willing to make sacrifices, and put in the work (statistically not on his favor because most people give up from slow results and leave the gym after 1 month)
But what about guy A all this time? Guy A is training like guy B is. The difference is, he is ahead of the curve . He has already built a (strength) base, and already has an athletic bodyfat. This leaves him free to do bulking/cutting and work on his strength. There is no way guy B, is ever going to reach the level of guy A, unless drugs come into play or something terrible happens to guy A and puts him back into his fitness for a long time.

As Scooby says, "it took your body years in getting fat, you cant just diet for 1 month and expect years of bodyfat gain to be gone in such a short amount of time" Which is something extremely true and unfortunately its something not a lot of people say, probably because its a hard pill to swallow. People want the NOW results, with the press of a button. Unfortunately some things take time and you cant shortchange fitness (you may shortchange muscle gain with steroids, but you cannot shortchange fitness)

(11-26-2018, 11:29 AM)Brett Wrote: I'm finding it difficult to believe that laziness is inherited. That's like saying being into sadism is inherited. People like to Blame their fuckups on others "oh my dad was an alcoholic", etc. Then they wonder why they are never successful at anything and watch 'how to become rich fast' YouTube vids but they can't even take responsibility for any mistake they have ever made.

You can play this card until you laying on your death bed.To be honest, you only deceiving yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd7wAithl7I

science disagrees with you on this. There is indeed a genetic link between laziness and the reward pathway you get from exercise. For some people, exercise is not enjoyable at all and do whatever they can in order to avoid it .

Does that mean a person with "inherited laziness" cannot get in shape? Well no. Its just that he is statistically more likely to be a couch potato, than a super athlete.
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#15
serious B*S* though.

"As Scooby says, "it took your body years in getting fat, you cant just diet for 1 month and expect years of bodyfat gain to be gone in such a short amount of time" Which is something extremely true and unfortunately its something not a lot of people say, probably because its a hard pill to swallow. People want the NOW results, with the press of a button. Unfortunately some things take time and you cant shortchange fitness (you may shortchange muscle gain with steroids, but you cannot shortchange fitness)"

3,500 cal's = 1lb

eat , 1,000 cal's day...run jog 2 hours day....lose about 6lb a week

24lb in a month

BUT people have no discipline. They won't jog 2 hours ad day or even 1 (short term)

They won't give up their beer and pizza even for a couple of weeks. 1,000 cal's a day isn't a lot. People might do it for a coupld of days then rebound like hell. Making up all kinds of excuses. If you do it full time,100% determination you can shed 5lb+ a week of fat. That is a fact.

yes,,people normally do get fat over time...but that's no excuse as to not losing it fast. A lot fast than you put it on...

Why take advice of Scooby doo anyway? These youtubers are the exact same people this site calls out
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#16
so here is another thing i read...

It goes something like

Fiorst 3 years you can put 5lbs of muscle on
next 3 3lb

thereafter 1lb a year...

RIGH..this is B*S* right? i eman if that was the case everyone over 50 that had lifted weights for 25+ years should be a minimum of 100kg+ and at less than 12% b.f. i.e old lifters should look like Ronni Coleman..

It is simply not the case. I'd say it's more like

First 5 years upto 12lbs

Thereafter..nil

after 50 lose upto 1/2lb a year....(if you do not maintain..) That is a pure guess.

But my point is you can only put so much on and that's it thereafter it's a fight to simply not lose it
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#17
(11-28-2018, 12:05 PM)Brett Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 11:03 AM)khrazz Wrote:

Those people are modern humanoids, who have lives of excess and self gratification. Their existence is only sustained by modern way of living. Go back into the time of hunting for your food or planting and harvesting it, these sad specimens would perish. 

Based on that it is not natural to be lazy. The human species would not have survived if it was always a trait within us. 

Its easy to justify why you are a failure over accepting responsibility which is why studies like I assume the one you linked probably have lots of views and likes.

You won't change my view on this.

As for your guy A and Guy b. You forgot about nube gains. You don't have to train like a Russian athlete to get a good response from you body in the first two to four years of training. You can lose fat and build muscle at the same time if you are still in the nube gains territory (truth seeker has stated so as well). Guy A has most likely hit a brick wall or is fast approaching it by the time Guy B is starting to train.

You seem to think bulking actually builds muscle. All bulking is is this, you eat in calorie surplus way above maintenance and you hope that you body will use the extra calories to build extra muscle above your genetic limit. (Why else would you do it if not for this reason because it has been proven bulking is not necessary nor recommended just to reach you genetic limit).

Key word: hope.

If it works for you please link the before and after pics of where you started at 80kg/12% bf and bulked to 90kg/20% bf and then 'cut' down to 83kg at 12% bf.

I dont want to change your view, we are simply having a discussion of ideas and hearing the opposite is always what makes me happy as it allows me to evaluate my thoughts. Thats the point of a grown up discussion. You cant change someones mind via force, you can only suppress it (like how modern media - it slowly suppresses the opposite voice and creates a balloon world of political correctness)


Anyhow, i agree on what you say about justifying your failure and blaming something else. Thats the path of least resistance and its something a lot of people do. Accepting personal responsibility is something a lot of people lack, because it demands that you drop your ego and accept yourself as someone who has flaws. Its easy to find flaws in other people, but tough to find your own flaws, let alone accept and work on them.


As for the bulking part, well the body needs extra calories to build new tissue. You seem to think that by bulking one needs to add slubs of fat cells, which is not true. By bulking i mean eating above maintenance while training hard. I may be biased here, but Jason Blaha has stated numerous times that in order to get big you need to bulk . Obviously,he has already said that by bulk he means to eat calories above maintenance, not eat and get fat as a pig. Science has also confirmed that in order to add tissue weight, you need to provide extra calories to your body because if you body has excess calories, it releases  extra  anabolic signal hormones (IGF-1,insulin) which then promote muscle protein synthesis. Btw, those anabolic signal hormones do not "care" what those calories are or where do they end up to (muscle cells or fat cells) .
Its kinda a complicated process, but what actually happens is that those anabolic signal hormones increase MPS in your whole body, even if someone does not work out at all. This is why fat people, if you do an X-RAY on them, have more muscle compared to someone who is thin and is that the same height as them. Fat is heavy, and the body grows muscle as a way to be able to carry itself (and from the excess of calories).
So whats the difference between a fat person and someone who is bulking? in 1 word, huge difference. Both of them release anabolic hormones from excess food. The difference here is that the guy bulking, creates a need for glycogen,triglycerides and amino acids in his muscle, while a fat guy does do that as much. This in turn, increases insulin sensitivity, because the muscle is way more depandant on energy compared to fat. That means that a big portion of food eaten, ends up as training fuel and MPS fuel. The fat person on the other hand, has poor insulin sensitivity, and most of the food eaten ends up directly feeding his fat cells.

Does that mean that someone who bulks cannot get fat? Hell no. Ofcourse he can. There is a point of diminished returns to how much food one can consume before suffering bad effects. But eating a small surplus wont make you fat. And it actually helps you add muscle because you have extra training/recovery fuel. Wink
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#18
I agree with you Brett. For naturals the word "bulking" should not be done. Maybe "not dieting or cutting" is a better way of looking at it. But after 5 years of lifting and say 40 years of age for natural "bulking" simply means getting fat.

Or you fall into that trap of believing you can forever add more muscle.

That is two actually..

"So whats the difference between a fat person and someone who is bulking? in 1 word, huge difference"
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