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Conviction
#11
(07-24-2020, 08:36 PM)TruthSeeker Wrote: And what if God and Satan are in this game together and we're merely pawns who can never find peace? What if we're already in hell?

We don't even need to speculate on that metaphysically for the abrahamic religions - just read the synopsis of the biblical account of Job, and the collusion between satan and god is literally in biblical writing.

Maybe you were already going to reference this.
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#12
(07-24-2020, 08:36 PM)TruthSeeker Wrote: And what if God and Satan are in this game together and we're merely pawns who can never find peace? What if we're already in hell?

Genesis

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.

Its true Satan is under the control of God.

Revelations speaks of him being chained up in the abyss for a thousand years and then purposely released to deceive the nations once more.

God is the alpha and omega. He created all things and he created the serpent too. However, Revelations tells us that the devil will be cast into the abyss permanently to be perpetually tortured.

Remember we are the clay and the Lord is the potter - Romans. 
Who are we to argue with the potter for our consciousness is not something we would have know without him. If he has created some for purpose of destruction and others for his mercy then who are we to argue?

Did we create the oceans, every bird, every animal, the sunset, the plants, the trees, the perfect equilibrium of nature, the wind, the stars, the rain, the clouds, the moon, the sun, the soil, etc.

Hell is not to be scoffed at. If hell was created as a place to torment the devil and his angels, then we who are not as powerful as them should be afraid, as it says those of us who's names have not been written in the book of life will be thrown in there too - Revelations.

Also, we know the devil has been given free reign over the earth for the time being until the return of Jesus. For when he took Jesus up onto that mountain and promised to give him everything he saw before him if he would worship Satan. Jesus response was not that is wasn't the devils to give - but he said you shall only worship God and no other.

So we know this is not hell as the Devil is ruling the world as God has temporarily allowed for the sake of his devine plan. And we know hell is not a place for him to rule over but for him to be tortured and tormented as Revelations tells us.

As a example, hence the transgender resembling Baal. Baal being a depiction of the devil. So its a glorification to the devil. A living worship by all who are transgender. Disgusting.

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#13
(07-25-2020, 06:50 AM)Brett Wrote: Genesis

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.

Its true Satan is under the control of God.

Revelations speaks of him being chained up in the abyss for a thousand years and then purposely released to deceive the nations once more.

God is the alpha and omega. He created all things and he created the serpent too. However, Revelations tells us that the devil will be cast into the abyss permanently to be perpetually tortured.

Remember we are the clay and the Lord is the potter - Romans. 
Who are we to argue with the potter for our consciousness is not something we would have know without him. If he has created some for purpose of destruction and others for his mercy then who are we to argue?

Did we create the oceans, every bird, every animal, the sunset, the plants, the trees, the perfect equilibrium of nature, the wind, the stars, the rain, the clouds, the moon, the sun, the soil, etc.

Hell is not to be scoffed at. If hell was created as a place to torment the devil and his angels, then we who are not as powerful as them should be afraid, as it says those of us who's names have not been written in the book of life will be thrown in there too - Revelations.

Also, we know the devil has been given free reign over the earth for the time being until the return of Jesus. For when he took Jesus up onto that mountain and promised to give him everything he saw before him if he would worship Satan. Jesus response was not that is wasn't the devils to give - but he said you shall only worship God and no other.

So we know this is not hell as the Devil is ruling the world as God has temporarily allowed for the sake of his devine plan. And we know hell is not a place for him to rule over but for him to be tortured and tormented as Revelations tells us.

As a example, hence the transgender resembling Baal. Baal being a depiction of the devil. So its a glorification to the devil. A living worship by all who are transgender. Disgusting.

Unfortunately, these kinds of accounts in the bible lay christianity out as a religion of evil.

#1 - A virtuous entity would not create beings to make them suffer. And if it thought the idea of evil is necessary for the appreciation of good, the entity could've made the beings able to imagine evil as a hypothetical alternative to each moment and thus directly experience the joy of its absence, rather than have to suffer from it.

A virtuous entity would not have afflicted its own creations with things like carnivorism, parasites, birth defects (not just formal diseases but also things like ugliness and micropenis), leprosy, cholera and polio, wouldn't have allowed the "free will" of one person to cause serious harm to another since that impedes their own freedom, wouldn't have created a torture dimension for his own creations just for being and doing what he intended for them, and wouldn't have made his creations suffer from incurable compulsions, obsessions and cognitive biases leading them to sin incorrigibly and then blame it on their "free will", and wouldn't give agents of evil (Satan and the rest of the demons) free reign to terrorize hapless creatures that already need all the help they can get.

#2 - A virtuous entity would not expect obedience for an amoral reason like claiming "the ultimate authority", because an amoral reason like that is oxymoronic with god being the perfect source of benevolent morality. You might argue that virtue gives authority, but not that authority gives virtue. The insight that this argument means the christian god is amoral however, actually explains nicely why the world it created also is so and fosters so much evil - which is why the early catholic church did its best to wipe out the early "heretics" who said just so.

Conclusion - Theological dualism between good and evil fought out within us and in the world makes much more logical and explanatory sense than the logically contradictory and gravely amoral/immoral christian account.

But instead of seeing the sense that early heretical figures like Marcion of Sinope were talking and abandoning or revising what their faith was at that point, the early christians who would become normative repressed them and destroyed all the works of them they could find.

I believe that religion can serve a positive existential value for us humans but that the abrahamic tree is not the right candidate. It is too illogical and immoral. And if you go back and study early christianity you will indeed see that it is not a case of a singular and harmonious development into one doctrine but a vicious, nasty, ugly mess, so you should not simply take for granted that the present form of christianity is what you have to accept.
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#14
(07-24-2020, 08:36 PM)TruthSeeker Wrote: And what if God and Satan are in this game together and we're merely pawns who can never find peace? What if we're already in hell?

It's clear to me that we're living in hell; life on this planet is a life of pain and suffering.
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#15
(07-24-2020, 08:36 PM)Buscador de la verdad Wrote: And what if God and Satan are in this game together and we're merely pawns who can never find peace? What if we're already in hell?

No. God and Satan are not the same. Hell is the place where the souls of people who die in sin go, without having repented of their faults.

How can this planet be hell when you feel good when: you eat, sleep, walk, you are with your family, nature ...

That is, the animals, nature, your family ... is it hell?

If God and Satan are the same, why does the powerful elite worship Satan and hate everything related to God (Jesus Christ)?
Why do they want to destroy Christianity?

They, the black magicians who control the world with the power of Satan, know that there is a God who condemns evil.
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#16
(07-25-2020, 08:42 AM)Loverboy Wrote: Unfortunately, these kinds of accounts in the bible lay christianity out as a religion of evil.

#1 - A virtuous entity would not create beings to make them suffer. And if it thought the idea of evil is necessary for the appreciation of good, the entity could've made the beings able to imagine evil as a hypothetical alternative to each moment and thus directly experience the joy of its absence, rather than have to suffer from it.

A virtuous entity would not have afflicted its own creations with things like carnivorism, parasites, birth defects (not just formal diseases but also things like ugliness and micropenis), leprosy, cholera and polio, wouldn't have allowed the "free will" of one person to cause serious harm to another since that impedes their own freedom, wouldn't have created a torture dimension for his own creations just for being and doing what he intended for them, and wouldn't have made his creations suffer from incurable compulsions, obsessions and cognitive biases leading them to sin incorrigibly and then blame it on their "free will", and wouldn't give agents of evil (Satan and the rest of the demons) free reign to terrorize hapless creatures that already need all the help they can get.

#2 - A virtuous entity would not expect obedience for an amoral reason like claiming "the ultimate authority", because an amoral reason like that is oxymoronic with god being the perfect source of benevolent morality. You might argue that virtue gives authority, but not that authority gives virtue. The insight that this argument means the christian god is amoral however, actually explains nicely why the world it created also is so and fosters so much evil - which is why the early catholic church did its best to wipe out the early "heretics" who said just so.

Conclusion - Theological dualism between good and evil fought out within us and in the world makes much more logical and explanatory sense than the logically contradictory and gravely amoral/immoral christian account.

But instead of seeing the sense that early heretical figures like Marcion of Sinope were talking and abandoning or revising what their faith was at that point, the early christians who would become normative repressed them and destroyed all the works of them they could find.

I believe that religion can serve a positive existential value for us humans but that the abrahamic tree is not the right candidate. It is too illogical and immoral. And if you go back and study early christianity you will indeed see that it is not a case of a singular and harmonious development into one doctrine but a vicious, nasty, ugly mess, so you should not simply take for granted that the present form of christianity is what you have to accept.

There is a common claim that the God of the Old Testament (even in the New Testament) seems very harsh, brutal, and even evil.

Una respuesta inicial a esta declaración puede ser simplemente: “¿Cómo puede el ateo o el incrédulo decir que Dios es duro, brutal y malvado cuando niega la Biblia, que es el libro que define lo que es duro, brutal y malvado? Además, en cosmovisiones ateas, materialistas y evolutivas, estas cosas no son ni buenas ni malas, porque, en su opinión, no hay Dios que establezca lo que está bien o mal. Las mismas personas que profesan creer en una visión naturalista de que los animales violan, asesinan y comen a los de su propia especie, son los que atacan al Dios amoroso de la Biblia y tratan de llamarlo malvado.


(Isaías 5:20)

20 But a closer look at those claims against the God of the Bible shows that these claims are without merit. Claiming that God is evil or harsh is an attack on God's character, and every Christian must be prepared to have an answer for these types of attacks.


(1 Pedro 3:15)

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear

La intención de muchos de los que hacen tales afirmaciones es hacer que un Dios bueno se vea malvado para justificar su rechazo a Él, Su Palabra o incluso Su existencia. Pero si Dios realmente no existe y la Biblia no es Su Palabra, entonces aquellos que atacan a Dios y Su Palabra llamándolo duro y malvado no deberían preocuparse por atacarlo ... Al atacarlo, demuestran que saben que Él existe y que simplemente reprimir ese conocimiento.

(Romans 1:20-25)

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Porque, cuando conocieron a Dios, no lo glorificaron como Dios, ni lo agradecieron; pero se volvieron vanos en su imaginación, y su tonto corazón se oscureció.

22 Profesando ser sabios, se hicieron necios,

23 Y transformó la gloria del Dios incorruptible en una imagen hecha semejante al hombre corruptible, a los pájaros, a las bestias de cuatro patas y a los reptiles.

24 Por lo cual Dios también los entregó a la inmundicia a través de los deseos de sus propios corazones, para deshonrar sus propios cuerpos entre ellos:

25 Quien transformó la verdad de Dios en una mentira, y adoró y sirvió a la criatura más que al Creador, quien es bendecido para siempre. Amén.

They try to justify their rebellion against God. Few people I have spoken to realize that when they attack God's character, in order to make a case against His existence, they refute their own position.

Some of the events in the Bible that people commonly use to justify the claim that God is hard include events in Genesis, such as the fall of man, the flood, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. And then they proceed with the Canaanites, the Egyptians, the Benjaminites, or even the unsaved in general. So Genesis seems like a good place to start.

THE FALL: ADAM AND EVA

The sacrifices made by the Lord for Adam and Eve, in order to provide them with leather robes (Genesis 3:21)

People often wonder how God could sentence all mankind to die because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve knew the punishment for sin (Genesis 2:17), but they sinned anyway, they went against the simple commandment of God. Adam knowingly sinned (1 Timothy 2:14), so he himself brought about his punishment. However, most people do not realize that all mankind sinned in Adam, since we were in the body of our ancestor when he sinned (Hebrews 7:10). Because of Adam's sin, we also receive a sin nature and sin ourselves (Romans 5:12). So we also die from sin, we are not different from Adam and Eve. However, we must stop to consider the blessing that is in the midst of the curse. When Adam and Eve sinned, God offered the first prophecy of Jesus Christ in Genesis 3:15. The curse of sin would be erased by the seed of a woman (the result of a virgin birth) sent to save humanity. A means of salvation was already offered.

In addition to this, the first man and the first woman should have died at that time, but God is patient and gave them a "grace period", covering their sin by animal sacrifice (when He made fur robes in Genesis 3 : 21) instead; sin is punishable by death, so something had to die (Hebrews 9:22). Abel followed this pattern (Genesis 4: 4), as did Noah (Genesis 8:20), Abraham (Genesis 22:13), and the Israelites. These animal sacrifices were not sufficient to eliminate sins (Hebrews 10: 4); only a sinless and perfect sacrifice, accomplished in the death of Jesus Christ, could do so (Hebrews 4:15, 9: 13-14). It was Christ's sacrifice alone that was enough to cover the sins of the whole world (1 John 2: 2). The infinite Son died to pay the debt for the infinite punishment of an infinitely Holy God.

So, so far there are already two blessings: a final means of salvation in Christ and a period of grace for the punishment due to sin that is covered instead of causing instant death. But there is another blessing that few can notice without reading the rest of the Bible. Having been condemned to die, man would not be forced to live in a world cursed by sin for all eternity, this is why the access road to the tree of life was guarded! (Genesis 3: 22-24) By dying in this sin-cursed world with Christ as Savior, one inherits the new heaven and the new earth, which are restored to perfection, where there is no curse, death, or suffering for eternity (Revelation 21: 4, 22: 3). Death will have no sting (1 Corinthians 15: 53–56) for those who are in Christ.

So in this case, man sinned and God acted justly in punishing sin, and went even further by offering three blessings: a period of grace, a means of salvation, and a perfect place to live an eternal life without sin. , death, or curse. Imagine that a thief appears before a judge and the judge says to him: "You have broken the law, so you deserve 50 years in prison without parole, but I am going to give you a year in prison, and you have to start paying it up inside six months so you can put your affairs in order. After a year, I am going to release him on warrant, and on top of that, I am going to buy him a million dollar house and prepare it for you." It seems strange that people say that the judge would be harsh and bad for sentencing the thief to one year in prison. But what would be even stranger would be for the thief to deny the generous offer (which is what many are doing under Satan's delusions and what he is looking for, that people do not accept the gift… that they reject God, Jesus Christ, the Bible and get into gnosis, occultism, the new age or become atheists or materialists .... and therefore, not be saved ).

THE FLOOD

God is frequently attacked for killing "all innocent people and even children" in the flood. In fact, some have specifically said: But children. . . How could God kill little children? The answer: If the earth was filled with violence and evil, it makes one wonder, how many children will still have been alive anyway? After all, in today's culture, where evil has a foothold, it is children who seem to bear the brunt of so much violence (for example, hundreds of millions of abortions ... and nobody says anything about that). Even if there were still some children left, God provided the ark. Why did the parents of these children refuse to let them approach her? Why did they insist on putting their children in danger? If anyone is to blame, it is the parents and the protectors who did not let them climb the ark.


Why blame God for something when He provided a means of salvation that parents rejected? Imagine if a man in a boat was going to rescue a woman and his son who are on a roof while the flood waters were rising. The man in the boat says to them: "Please, get on and I can save you"; and the woman answers him: "No, we are going to stay because I do not believe him." Then the man waits patiently and even tries to explain what will happen; however, she continues to reject him over and over again. The man in the boat even asks her to send her son and she still refuses and beats the man to leave. . . and finally they drown. Is it appropriate to blame the man on the boat for the boy's death? But consider this, judging Scripture by Scripture, which says that no one is truly innocent (Romans 3:23), and eventually everyone will die anyway, which is a repercussion of our own actions (1 Corinthians 15:22; Romans 6: 2. 3). Second, what led such a judgment on people before the flood?

What a strong statement! All intention and thought was to do evil all the time. Imagine the murders, rapes, robberies, child sacrifices, cannibalism, and so on. This happened continuously, and it is happening again in our times. However, this went through about 120 years (maximum) before the flood (Genesis 6: 3). So God was still patient, giving time for repentance and change (1 Peter 3:20). God even called Noah to be a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2: 5), but the people still refused to listen and continued on their evil ways…. as it is currently happening...

God even offered them a way of salvation! He provided an ark through Noah and his family, and yet the others did not arrive. Only Noah's family was saved (2 Peter 2: 5). The means of salvation, the preaching of justice, and the patience of God were there, but all the others refused and received their judgment.

As a separate note, the statement of the children who died in the flood has always been of interest, especially when skeptics and atheists touch on the subject. The hypocrisy is surprising since these skeptics and atheists generally support the murder of babies, as we have seen in debates about abortion. If people were really bad and their thoughts were doing evil all the time, then abortion, child murder, and child sacrifice were probably commonplace. Disobedience to God would probably mean disobeying God's command to be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28). Resisting this mandate would result in dramatically reducing the number of children, so one might wonder if there were many children around at the time of the flood. Noah himself had no children until he was 500 years old (which leads one to consider the view that children may have been few and far between these days). Still, children are sinful and may also have evil intentions and thoughts (Romans 3:23). Today, for example, we see children killing other children at school, robber children, child rape, and so on. But if the children and babies didn't make it to the ark (the means of salvation at the time), whose fault is it but their own parents or protectors who refused to leave them ?! So why blame God when He offered them a way to save themselves?

SODOMA AND GOMORRA

In Genesis 18: 20–33, the Lord revealed to Abraham that Sodom and Gomorrah had sinned greatly. His wickedness was not fully disclosed, but we are aware of his sodomy acts that had gripped his actions enough to commit rape. Abraham asked if God would destroy the righteous with the wicked. He asked the Lord if he would forgive them if there were 50 righteous; said yes. He asked the Lord if he would forgive them if there were 40 righteous; said yes. He asked the Lord if he would forgive them if there were 30 righteous; said yes. He asked the Lord if he would forgive them if there were 20 righteous; said yes. He asked the Lord if he would forgive them if there were 10 righteous; said yes.

This reveals how wicked and sinful people were. They had no excuse and the trial would finally come. This also reveals something interesting about the universal flood. If God was going to forgive Sodom and Gomorrah for just 10 righteous people, then would God have given the earth a chance for just 10 righteous people before the flood? It seems that it was. It is possible that Methuselah and Lamech, Noah's father and grandfather, may have been one of the 10 (along with Noah, his wife, and their three children and their wives). Of course it is possible that there could have been others who were also righteous, up to the time of the Flood. But at the time of the flood, we can assume that there were only eight (Methuselah and Lamec had died shortly before the flood).

Lot and his family were less than 10 in Sodom and Gomorrah (Lot, his wife, his two daughters, and his two sons-in-law were only six). However, God provided a means of salvation for them through angels who helped them get to safety.

¿Were there children in Sodom and Gomorrah? The Bible doesn't reveal it, and homosexual behavior was rampant, so there couldn't have been many, if any, children. Since God made it clear that not even 10 people were fair in the city, then even the children (if any) were extremely sinful. But like all these situations, if the children, the parents or the protectors refused to let them have salvation and just teachings, whose fault is it? It is not the fault of God, who provided a way out, but of those who repressed the truth.

God was just and gave the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the five cities of the plain, what they asked for (their deserved punishment). They wanted a life without God and His goodness. . . and God granted them.

THE EGYPTIANS

In this case, God used Moses and Aaron (Exodus 5-15) to judge the Egyptians for the evil they inflicted on the Israelites through harsh slavery (Exodus 1: 8–14), murdering their children (Exodus 1:22), etc. God sent many plagues and disasters to the earth because Pharaoh continued to sin and the nation of Egypt followed in their sin. It culminated in the death of the firstborn in Egypt, even though this judgment could have been easily avoided if Pharaoh had listened to and freed the Israelites, from whom the Redeemer would come in the future, from oppression; therefore, blood is on Pharaoh's head. Even the death of Pharaoh and his army was on his own head, it was not God's fault. In fact, each plague could easily have been avoided if Pharaoh had responded to what God had told him through Moses and Aaron. So, he was given a means of salvation from the plagues, but Pharaoh and the Egyptians rejected him.

THE CANANEOS

As for God using people to do His will, this is nothing new, as we saw with Moses and Aaron, and the Egyptians. God used people to build an ark, His temple, and so on. God used judges and kings to protect from attack and to do justice, among other functions. So the concept is nothing new. With the Canaanites, God used the Israelites to enact His judgment under the leadership of Joshua.

The Canaanites were far from innocent! God was patient with them as they continued in their sin. Among the Canaanite tribes when Joshua invaded were the Amorites whose sin was prophesied to Abraham. Abraham received the prophecy that the Amorites' sin had not reached its full measure (Genesis 15:16). During this time, Abraham met Melchizedek, a noble and royal priest in the land of Canaan. But Melchizedek's ministry certainly had an influence on the Canaanites as it took several hundred years before their sin took hold of them. If they had kept listening to what he taught them, they probably would not have been in that situation.

When Joshua entered the land of Canaan, the Amorites' sin had come to its full measure and it was time for judgment. Leviticus 18: 2–30 points out the horrendous crimes that were happening in the land of Canaan. They were having sex with their mothers, sisters, and so on. The men were having sex with other men. They were giving their children to be sacrificed to Molech (vs. 21). They were having sex with animals (vs. 23). So it is impossible to make the claim that those tribes were innocent and did not deserve punishment.

But one cannot neglect the fact that children also sin. As noted earlier, today there are children killing children, children stealing, children raping, and so on. So the innocence of children is a sham. In fact, if they sacrificed their children, how many children will have been alive when Joshua entered the promised land anyway?

In Jericho, both young and old were to be destroyed (Joshua 5: 13–6: 21), so at least Jericho had young men. However, Jericho is also the place where Christ Himself appeared as a theophany to lead Joshua in battle. Jericho must have been too bad to justify a physical appearance of Christ to shed judgment on them. Maybe all the sins mentioned in Leviticus 18 happened there too! However, even in Jericho, there was a means of salvation as Rahab and his family were saved. She can even be found in the lineage of Christ (Matthew 1: 5).

THE BENJAMITES

The Benjaminites also asked for it (Judges 19: 22-25, 20:13) and left on the side of the wicked. So no one can claim that the Benjaminites were innocent either. Sadly, the Benjaminites knew the consequences of their actions before they sinned. They were Israelites so they had no excuse for not knowing what Moses wrote. It was a mistake on their part, but they deliberately chose to sin (Leviticus 18, especially verses 26–30). They also asked for it.

If the Benjaminites had repented, the Lord would have forgiven them. The Israelites had ample means of sacrifice to cover sin and drive out the wicked among them. However, the Benjaminites rejected this means of salvation and sinned against God.

THE NON-CHRISTIANS

In discussing eternal salvation in Christ with non-Christians, they often ask: Do you really believe that a loving God would send people to eternal hell? The answer is: Only if they sin! And the reality is that we have all sinned, we are all deprived of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). The fascinating thing is that some will not spend eternity in hell. Everyone deserves that punishment, including me, but God has provided a means of salvation just as He did in the Old Testament situations described above. If you refuse to receive this salvation, can you blame God?

There is only one God; He is the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament, even though some try to suggest that there are different presentations. In both the Old and New Testaments, people had the opportunity to return to a right relationship with Him through repentance, asking for forgiveness of their sins and receiving Christ as their Lord and Savior. In both Testaments, God judges sin. Mercy and patience were to be found through the resources God gave: Noah, with his preaching for years; and Abraham, with his plea for Sodom and Gomorrah (even Lot urged people not to be so bad); just as mercy and patience are still available today (John 7: 37-38).

And He has provided a means of salvation in Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:18), as have the ark in the flood and the angels who urged Lot and his family to flee Sodom and Gomorrah. No one can blame God for not providing a merciful alternative, nor can they call Him "wicked" for providing justice against sin.

A DISCERNABLE PATTERN

From the previous examples, we see a distinctive model that comes out of the judgments brought by God on various peoples:

1. God declares annihilation as a form of judgment to end cancer.

2. The trials are for public recognition, due to extreme sin.

3. Before trials there is a warning and / or long periods where the truth is presented with time for repentance.

4. Each and every "innocent" adult is given the opportunity to escape with their families; sometimes they are presented with a way to avoid judgment by repentance or by leaving a particular region. It should also be noted that expulsion from land was the most common judgment; but not the extermination. This pattern dates back to the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:24).

5. Someone is, almost always, saved / redeemed from the evil culture.

6. God's judgment always comes.

Far from being innocent, those who were part of God's judgments were involved in serious sin and committed acts of great barbarism, such as burning their children to death in rituals as an offering to their false gods. Surprisingly, instead of immediately destroying the peoples involved in such things, we find the opposite: Scripture states that God had incredible patience and waited until the full measure of the works of these peoples were complete. For example, while talking to Abraham about the future exodus of Israel from the land of Egypt, God says about the Amorites: “And in the fourth generation they will return here; because the evil of the Amorites up to here has not yet reached its height. ” (Genesis 15:16).

One must ask, would humanity suffer so much if these long-suffering acts with such terrible consequences happened? If such acts were like those recorded in the Old Testament but projected into the 21st century and broadcast globally by CNN, there would undoubtedly be a universal clamor for the military action described in those records if they were not immediately stopped. Why then do critics of God feel justified in labeling the Creator as morally unjust even though God waited, in some cases, for centuries to punish the people involved?

CONCLUSION

Naturally, there are plenty of other examples in Scripture where these same principles apply. Consider the analogy of a person who steals and gets caught. When she stands before the judge, the judge finds her guilty and imposes a fine on her. But then the judge offers to pay the fine. Instead of accepting, the thief rejects him and blames the whole mess on the judge who acted fairly and even offered him a way out!
Esto es realmente lo que está sucediendo en la cultura actual. Los humanos pecan y están atrapados. Las personas son encontradas culpables por un Dios Santo. Dios interviene y ofrece un medio de salvación para el castigo del crimen (que es la muerte eterna), e incluso muere en su lugar para que puedan tener vida eterna. Sin embargo, a pesar de todo esto, ¡los pecadores le dicen que no a Dios y luego lo culpan por la situación en la que se encuentran! Simplemente no tiene sentido.

In light of this, God should not be blamed, but those who were punished for their sin are to blame. God provided a means of salvation in each of these cases, even though He was not obligated to do so. God is not to be blamed. Interestingly, people who say that God is cruel want justice when they are treated unfairly; for example, if someone steals from you, attacks you, or offends you in any way. They really have a double standard.

We are all sinners under the death penalty (Romans 3:23). But it is emphasized that God has provided a means of salvation in Christ. It would be good for people to realize that they must hate sin (Romans 12:9) and love God (Deuteronomy 6:5) who acts justly against sin (2 Thessalonians 1:5–10). However, He offers abundant mercy to those who love Him. Exodus 20:6; Deuteronomy 7:9; Ephesians 2:4

A final and very important element that we must know about the God of the Bible is the freedom with which he created us. If the God of the Bible were an archon, demiurge, or evil, he would not have given us the ability to choose.

When God created human beings, He wanted them to be free. Freedom is a good thing. But, if humans are to be free, they cannot be forced to obey God, because freedom without choice is like a square circle. It is a logical contradiction. If there is no choice, there is no freedom. God didn't want robots… He wanted real people.

The first humans endowed with the amazing power of free choice abused their freedom. The tragic consequences of his poor choice and our bad choices spread across the world. God is responsible for giving us freedom, but humans are responsible for our acts of freedom. Furthermore, our very God became man to suffer with us, and pay for us.

God is good and wants real people like you to know him, but free choice is yours.

(07-24-2020, 08:48 PM)Loverboy Wrote: We don't even need to speculate on that metaphysically for the abrahamic religions - just read the synopsis of the biblical account of Job, and the collusion between satan and god is literally in biblical writing.

Maybe you were already going to reference this.

WHY GOD IS NOT ANOTHER “ENTITY” FROM WHICH TO BE FREE

The essential question we should ask ourselves is how do we know that we can trust the God of the Bible and not be afraid of falling under the clutches of a deceiving entity.

Many have beliefs and distortions before understanding the truth. Some of us think what would happen if God were the bad one, others when they leave the new era do not want to know anything, not even from the Bible, because they have been deceived for so long. Others are left with the ideas they read in so many books about the matrix, Gnosticism, ascension, and the supposed human liberation from the matrix. If you read all the channeling of supposedly deceiving light beings, you will see that they always appeal to "personal empowerment", to "you are God, you are free" and things like that.

Knowing that there is a true and benevolent Creator (note: we did not say good-natured as it is said in another part of the world to someone who does not exercise his authority) is a first step. We do not create ourselves. We do not choose our gender (despite the fact that those of gender ideology want to say yes), neither our family, nor the country where we were born. We cannot give life to something inanimate, nor can we create living beings. At most we have reached the moon, and that, many say was not even true. Wanting to feel like gods, not to need a God, is exactly what Lucifer wanted to do, and now he invites us to try it (although he dies of laughter, because he knows that we do not even have that power).

A good example of someone in the Bible who came to think that God was a capricious divinity was Job. Despite being a righteous man, Job had a series of very difficult tests on his family, his health, and his financial fortune. His friends said that he had surely committed a sin, and for this he was being punished, however Job affirmed his innocence before these accusations and maintained that he did not deserve this harm from God. However, he came to think that God was a capricious divinity who blesses and curses at random, and that we must accept both. Is this what God is like?

When Job meets God in chapter 38, we discover that this is a different God. This God is not distant, indifferent and fickle. Instead, this God meets Job in his suffering. God comes to Job, but God does not explicitly answer Job's questions about evil. Rather, God has some questions for Job. God takes Job on a tour of creation and asks him questions about the mysteries of the universe: about the night sky, about the power of the oceans, and about the riddles of the animal kingdom. Then God says to Job: “Is it wisdom to contend with the Almighty? He who disputes with God, answer this."
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#17
I never said that God is Satan. I said what if they're working together. What if they're playing the good and bad cop routine on you?

1. On one hand, you have God who has put you into this world. You are therefore subject to God and the world. You answer to God and are fully dependent on him and the laws of nature that he has created. Your life should be devoted to him. Therefore, people are technically PAWNS.

After all, none of us asked to be born. God created us because he wanted to. We belong to him.

If you choose that route, you become a slave to scripture and God.

2. Satan is here to seduce you with sin and make you self-destroy. If you choose that route, you're a slave to the devil. You will experience great suffering, albeit with some worldly pleasure.

In both cases, you're nothing but a pawn that serves a bigger entity.

3. What if the powerful elite is also wrong. What if they're nothing but Satan's bitches. What if Satan is just playing a game with them. Mocking them. Stealing their souls for fun. Or in other words, the fact that they worship Satan could be simply because they've bough the bad cop speech.

4. This place could be Hell because the perfect hell would include heaven in it.

There's no pain without joy and vice versa. And one of the greatest pains in this world is seeing happiness and not having it. That can only happen if your suffering exists in parallel with other people's happiness. E.g., Seeing happy couples around while you've been alone forever.

P.S. I would appreciate it if you answer with a shorter response because it's difficult to follow so much information, especially if it gets quoted. Thank you.

I am not saying any of this because I don't believe in God. All I ever wanted was to just know the truth of this world.
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#18
(07-26-2020, 05:07 AM)TruthSeeker Wrote: In both cases, you're nothing but a pawn that serves a bigger entity.

I wonder if there's a third route, one which doesn't require slaving either to God or Satan; to get the benefits of each route without going all in either way. We are only human, after all.
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#19
(07-26-2020, 05:07 AM)TruthSeeker Wrote: I never said that God is Satan. I said what if they're working together. What if they're playing the good and bad cop routine on you?

1. On one hand, you have God who has put you into this world. You are therefore subject to God and the world. You answer to God and are fully dependent on him and the laws of nature that he has created. Your life should be devoted to him. Therefore, people are technically PAWNS.

After all, none of us asked to be born. God created us because he wanted to. We belong to him.

If you choose that route, you become a slave to scripture and God.

2. Satan is here to seduce you with sin and make you self-destroy. If you choose that route, you're a slave to the devil. You will experience great suffering, albeit with some worldly pleasure.

In both cases, you're nothing but a pawn that serves a bigger entity.

3. What if the powerful elite is also wrong. What if they're nothing but Satan's bitches. What if Satan is just playing a game with them. Mocking them. Stealing their souls for fun. Or in other words, the fact that they worship Satan could be simply because they've bough the bad cop speech.

4. This place could be Hell because the perfect hell would include heaven in it.

There's no pain without joy and vice versa. And one of the greatest pains in this world is seeing happiness and not having it. That can only happen if your suffering exists in parallel with other people's happiness. E.g., Seeing happy couples around while you've been alone forever.

P.S. I would appreciate it if you answer with a shorter response because it's difficult to follow so much information, especially if it gets quoted. Thank you.

I am not saying any of this because I don't believe in God. All I ever wanted was to just know the truth of this world.

Its true - we are either a slave to rightousness or a slave to sin. The bible says so in Romans.

But it does provide some hope. However not hope for everyone. The bible makes it clear God has to draw those whom he chooses. You don't choose God.

Matthew 11: 27 "All things have been committed to me by my father. No one knows the son except the father, and no one knows the father except the son and those to whom the son chooses to reveal him".

John 6: 44 "No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day".

Both Jesus said. 

In Revelations it speaks of the book of life being written at the creation of the world. This means before you or I were born it was already decided by God our fates.

Read Romans. It speaks of predistination:

Romans 10: 20 "And Isaiah boldy says, I was found by those who did not seek me, I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me".

Romans 8:29 - 30 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son, that he might be the first born among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called, those he called, he also justified, those he justified, he also glorified."

In fact the bible as you can see makes it clear there is no free will. It says God hardens men's hearts so that he may prepare some for destruction and others he prepared for his mercy (Romans 9).

Free will? There is none. Its a illusion.

The bible says it plainly.

Let me prove it again.

God created the devil/the serpent/Satan. Jesus says that the devil was a liar/murderer from the beginning. So what does that tell us? If he was a murderer from the beginning then he was never righteous. Because thats what the word - beginning means - that is if its the correct translation of the original hebrew text.

So it tells us that devil has been created for this very purpose. 

Revelations speaks of this too. How the devil will be captured and held in the abyss for 1000 years, and then purposely released again to go out and deceive the nations (after which he will be thrown into hell perpetually).

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#20
(07-26-2020, 12:13 PM)lemmings Wrote: I wonder if there's a third route, one which doesn't require slaving either to God or Satan; to get the benefits of each route without going all in either way. We are only human, after all.

I don't think there is. Satan is a million times smarter than a human and God is infinitely powerful. He created the entire universe. Besides, where would you go. You were created by God and so is everything around you.

Besides, at they say "you can't serve two masters".
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