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Overhead Press
#1
The Truth Seeker mentions overhead press as the king of shoulders. Is push press valid substitute?
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#2
(12-13-2018, 04:51 AM)The Light Among Darkness Wrote: The Truth Seeker mentions overhead press as the king of shoulders. Is push press valid substitute?

Push press will allow you to lift more weight because of momentum. I don't think one is far superior to the other. I personally don't do military press anymore, I found it helps contribute even more to a shoulder imbalance by having that hunched over shoulder look and putting more emphasis on the anterior deltoids.

I prefer to do lighter press behind the neck. Why do so many naturals want to do heavy military press when their shoulders are so small and already disproportionally built. How is hoisting up a heavy weight going to grow such small muscles (have you seen how small most peoples medial and posterior deltoids are?). I would rather have more developed medial and posterior deltoids than big anterior delts with the other two heads lacking.
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#3
(12-13-2018, 10:26 AM)Brett Wrote:
(12-13-2018, 04:51 AM)The Light Among Darkness Wrote: The Truth Seeker mentions overhead press as the king of shoulders. Is push press valid substitute?

Push press will allow you to lift more weight because of momentum. I don't think one is far superior to the other. I personally don't do military press anymore, I found it helps contribute even more to a shoulder imbalance by having that hunched over shoulder look and putting more emphasis on the anterior deltoids.

I prefer to do lighter press behind the neck. Why do so many naturals want to do heavy military press when their shoulders are so small and already disproportionally built. How is hoisting up a heavy weight going to grow such small muscles (have you seen how small most peoples medial and posterior deltoids are?). I would rather have more developed medial and posterior deltoids than big anterior delts with the other two heads lacking.

Hi, Brett. If I may ask why would prefer to have lit and mid delt rather than front ? (just want to understand your view because its super new for, I thought the opposite look better)

Just questions, isn't also pull-up and dip work mid and lit delts, why the risk of behind neck press?
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#4
(12-14-2018, 07:32 AM)Ramy_Saber Wrote:
(12-13-2018, 10:26 AM)Brett Wrote:
(12-13-2018, 04:51 AM)The Light Among Darkness Wrote: The Truth Seeker mentions overhead press as the king of shoulders. Is push press valid substitute?

Push press will allow you to lift more weight because of momentum. I don't think one is far superior to the other. I personally don't do military press anymore, I found it helps contribute even more to a shoulder imbalance by having that hunched over shoulder look and putting more emphasis on the anterior deltoids.

I prefer to do lighter press behind the neck. Why do so many naturals want to do heavy military press when their shoulders are so small and already disproportionally built. How is hoisting up a heavy weight going to grow such small muscles (have you seen how small most peoples medial and posterior deltoids are?). I would rather have more developed medial and posterior deltoids than big anterior delts with the other two heads lacking.

Hi, Brett. If I may ask why would prefer to have lit and mid delt rather than front ? (just want to understand your view because its super new for, I thought the opposite look better)

Just questions, isn't also pull-up and dip work mid and lit delts, why the risk of behind neck press?

Its not that I would rather have less anterior deltoid development for more medial or posterior, its not a trade off. Since most of us work our anterior delts hard enough from bench press, dips and push ups it doesn't need to be worked anymore. 

You don't need a dedicated shoulder day. You just need a pull day and a push day. However since the anterior deltoid is the biggest out of the three heads, adding in some assistance work for the other two heads can't hurt. Light press behind the neck, in my opinion, is not that dangerous, if at all. It works the medial head quite nicely too.

Dips are basically all anterior Delts. Pull-ups are posterior delts although for stabilization all heads are working just like dips, just not as the main 'worker'.

If you sit on a chair and take a light dumbbell (12kg) in each hand and do a lateral raise you will see how weak you medial deltoids are. They sit comfortably between the other two and only really get called upon when you raise your arms to the sides, but for most people isolation exercises are boring, so light press behind the neck is the best solution and also helps improve shoulder flexibility.
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#5
(12-14-2018, 07:58 AM)Brett Wrote:
(12-14-2018, 07:32 AM)Ramy_Saber Wrote:
(12-13-2018, 10:26 AM)Brett Wrote:
(12-13-2018, 04:51 AM)The Light Among Darkness Wrote: The Truth Seeker mentions overhead press as the king of shoulders. Is push press valid substitute?

Push press will allow you to lift more weight because of momentum. I don't think one is far superior to the other. I personally don't do military press anymore, I found it helps contribute even more to a shoulder imbalance by having that hunched over shoulder look and putting more emphasis on the anterior deltoids.

I prefer to do lighter press behind the neck. Why do so many naturals want to do heavy military press when their shoulders are so small and already disproportionally built. How is hoisting up a heavy weight going to grow such small muscles (have you seen how small most peoples medial and posterior deltoids are?). I would rather have more developed medial and posterior deltoids than big anterior delts with the other two heads lacking.

Hi, Brett. If I may ask why would prefer to have lit and mid delt rather than front ? (just want to understand your view because its super new for, I thought the opposite look better)

Just questions, isn't also pull-up and dip work mid and lit delts, why the risk of behind neck press?

Its not that I would rather have less anterior deltoid development for more medial or posterior, its not a trade off. Since most of us work our anterior delts hard enough from bench press, dips and push ups it doesn't need to be worked anymore. 

You don't need a dedicated shoulder day. You just need a pull day and a push day. However since the anterior deltoid is the biggest out of the three heads, adding in some assistance work for the other two heads can't hurt. Light press behind the neck, in my opinion, is not that dangerous, if at all. It works the medial head quite nicely too.

Dips are basically all anterior Delts. Pull-ups are posterior delts although for stabilization all heads are working just like dips, just not as the main 'worker'.

If you sit on a chair and take a light dumbbell (12kg) in each hand and do a lateral raise you will see how weak you medial deltoids are. They sit comfortably between the other two and only really get called upon when you raise your arms to the sides, but for most people isolation exercises are boring, so light press behind the neck is the best solution and also helps improve shoulder flexibility.
Side Rises > Overhead pressing of any kind then? Getting past 40 lbs on side rise is very slow right now, easier to add weight on pressing, but behind the neck gets dangerous at some point. What are your thoughts, Brett. Maybe Truth Seeker will contribute his thoughts on this?
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#6
(12-15-2018, 04:07 AM)The Light Among Darkness Wrote:
(12-14-2018, 07:58 AM)Brett Wrote:
(12-14-2018, 07:32 AM)Ramy_Saber Wrote:
(12-13-2018, 10:26 AM)Brett Wrote:
(12-13-2018, 04:51 AM)The Light Among Darkness Wrote: The Truth Seeker mentions overhead press as the king of shoulders. Is push press valid substitute?

Push press will allow you to lift more weight because of momentum. I don't think one is far superior to the other. I personally don't do military press anymore, I found it helps contribute even more to a shoulder imbalance by having that hunched over shoulder look and putting more emphasis on the anterior deltoids.

I prefer to do lighter press behind the neck. Why do so many naturals want to do heavy military press when their shoulders are so small and already disproportionally built. How is hoisting up a heavy weight going to grow such small muscles (have you seen how small most peoples medial and posterior deltoids are?). I would rather have more developed medial and posterior deltoids than big anterior delts with the other two heads lacking.

Hi, Brett. If I may ask why would prefer to have lit and mid delt rather than front ? (just want to understand your view because its super new for, I thought the opposite look better)

Just questions, isn't also pull-up and dip work mid and lit delts, why the risk of behind neck press?

Its not that I would rather have less anterior deltoid development for more medial or posterior, its not a trade off. Since most of us work our anterior delts hard enough from bench press, dips and push ups it doesn't need to be worked anymore. 

You don't need a dedicated shoulder day. You just need a pull day and a push day. However since the anterior deltoid is the biggest out of the three heads, adding in some assistance work for the other two heads can't hurt. Light press behind the neck, in my opinion, is not that dangerous, if at all. It works the medial head quite nicely too.

Dips are basically all anterior Delts. Pull-ups are posterior delts although for stabilization all heads are working just like dips, just not as the main 'worker'.

If you sit on a chair and take a light dumbbell (12kg) in each hand and do a lateral raise you will see how weak you medial deltoids are. They sit comfortably between the other two and only really get called upon when you raise your arms to the sides, but for most people isolation exercises are boring, so light press behind the neck is the best solution and also helps improve shoulder flexibility.
Side Rises > Overhead pressing of any kind then? Getting past 40 lbs on side rise is very slow right now, easier to add weight on pressing, but behind the neck gets dangerous at some point. What are your thoughts, Brett. Maybe Truth Seeker will contribute his thoughts on this?

Again, the size of the medial deltoids means if you are going to isolate them you are going to use light weight for high reps. So if you are going to translate that into a compound movement like press behind the neck, using light weight for high reps won't be dangerous. Both the medial head and posterior head are made up of predominantly slow twitch muscle fibres. So why do people expect huge growth from hitting heavy military press for low reps.
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#7
too much bro science here......you can only put a small bit of muscle on naturally anyway...so forget it with the B*S*about getting too inbalanced etc. IF you take roids it's possible. Not naturally.

You'll find most natural can only press 65-75kg anyway.
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#8
(12-15-2018, 11:30 AM)jimjohnson Wrote: too much bro science here......you can only put a small bit of muscle on naturally anyway...so forget it with the B*S*about getting too inbalanced etc. IF you take roids it's possible. Not naturally.

You'll find most natural can only press 65-75kg anyway.

I never said you will get 3D capped deltoids from doing light press behind the neck, now did I?

Why can't the posterior and medial deltoids hypertrophy, after all aren't they a muscle?

You can't have capped deltoids naturally but you can balance out your three deltoid heads so they have more of a balanced look to them. No bro science about that.
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#9
(12-15-2018, 06:17 AM)Brett Wrote:
(12-15-2018, 04:07 AM)The Light Among Darkness Wrote:
(12-14-2018, 07:58 AM)Brett Wrote:
(12-14-2018, 07:32 AM)Ramy_Saber Wrote:
(12-13-2018, 10:26 AM)Brett Wrote: Push press will allow you to lift more weight because of momentum. I don't think one is far superior to the other. I personally don't do military press anymore, I found it helps contribute even more to a shoulder imbalance by having that hunched over shoulder look and putting more emphasis on the anterior deltoids.

I prefer to do lighter press behind the neck. Why do so many naturals want to do heavy military press when their shoulders are so small and already disproportionally built. How is hoisting up a heavy weight going to grow such small muscles (have you seen how small most peoples medial and posterior deltoids are?). I would rather have more developed medial and posterior deltoids than big anterior delts with the other two heads lacking.

Hi, Brett. If I may ask why would prefer to have lit and mid delt rather than front ? (just want to understand your view because its super new for, I thought the opposite look better)

Just questions, isn't also pull-up and dip work mid and lit delts, why the risk of behind neck press?

Its not that I would rather have less anterior deltoid development for more medial or posterior, its not a trade off. Since most of us work our anterior delts hard enough from bench press, dips and push ups it doesn't need to be worked anymore. 

You don't need a dedicated shoulder day. You just need a pull day and a push day. However since the anterior deltoid is the biggest out of the three heads, adding in some assistance work for the other two heads can't hurt. Light press behind the neck, in my opinion, is not that dangerous, if at all. It works the medial head quite nicely too.

Dips are basically all anterior Delts. Pull-ups are posterior delts although for stabilization all heads are working just like dips, just not as the main 'worker'.

If you sit on a chair and take a light dumbbell (12kg) in each hand and do a lateral raise you will see how weak you medial deltoids are. They sit comfortably between the other two and only really get called upon when you raise your arms to the sides, but for most people isolation exercises are boring, so light press behind the neck is the best solution and also helps improve shoulder flexibility.
Side Rises > Overhead pressing of any kind then? Getting past 40 lbs on side rise is very slow right now, easier to add weight on pressing, but behind the neck gets dangerous at some point. What are your thoughts, Brett. Maybe Truth Seeker will contribute his thoughts on this?

Again, the size of the medial deltoids means if you are going to isolate them you are going to use light weight for high reps. So if you are going to translate that into a compound movement like press behind the neck, using light weight for high reps won't be dangerous. Both the medial head and posterior head are made up of predominantly slow twitch muscle fibres. So why do people expect huge growth from hitting heavy military press for low reps.

Brett, why do you think they are slow twitch? Different people could have different ratios of fibers types within different muscles across the body. Besides, how are you going to track progress on side rise if it takes eternity to go from 40 lbs db seated rise for 10 reps to using 45 lbs db?
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#10
(12-15-2018, 03:42 PM)The Light Among Darkness Wrote:
(12-15-2018, 06:17 AM)Brett Wrote:
(12-15-2018, 04:07 AM)The Light Among Darkness Wrote:
(12-14-2018, 07:58 AM)Brett Wrote:
(12-14-2018, 07:32 AM)Ramy_Saber Wrote: Hi, Brett. If I may ask why would prefer to have lit and mid delt rather than front ? (just want to understand your view because its super new for, I thought the opposite look better)

Just questions, isn't also pull-up and dip work mid and lit delts, why the risk of behind neck press?

Its not that I would rather have less anterior deltoid development for more medial or posterior, its not a trade off. Since most of us work our anterior delts hard enough from bench press, dips and push ups it doesn't need to be worked anymore. 

You don't need a dedicated shoulder day. You just need a pull day and a push day. However since the anterior deltoid is the biggest out of the three heads, adding in some assistance work for the other two heads can't hurt. Light press behind the neck, in my opinion, is not that dangerous, if at all. It works the medial head quite nicely too.

Dips are basically all anterior Delts. Pull-ups are posterior delts although for stabilization all heads are working just like dips, just not as the main 'worker'.

If you sit on a chair and take a light dumbbell (12kg) in each hand and do a lateral raise you will see how weak you medial deltoids are. They sit comfortably between the other two and only really get called upon when you raise your arms to the sides, but for most people isolation exercises are boring, so light press behind the neck is the best solution and also helps improve shoulder flexibility.
Side Rises > Overhead pressing of any kind then? Getting past 40 lbs on side rise is very slow right now, easier to add weight on pressing, but behind the neck gets dangerous at some point. What are your thoughts, Brett. Maybe Truth Seeker will contribute his thoughts on this?

Again, the size of the medial deltoids means if you are going to isolate them you are going to use light weight for high reps. So if you are going to translate that into a compound movement like press behind the neck, using light weight for high reps won't be dangerous. Both the medial head and posterior head are made up of predominantly slow twitch muscle fibres. So why do people expect huge growth from hitting heavy military press for low reps.

Brett, why do you think they are slow twitch? Different people could have different ratios of fibers types within different muscles across the body. Besides, how are you going to track progress on side rise if it takes eternity to go from 40 lbs db seated rise for 10 reps to using 45 lbs db?

True, I guess I'm just stating my opinion. I found that after walking with a load my medial deltoids were sore, meaning mine are slow twitch (I thought most peoples predominately were). I personally dont mind only making small increments in weight on a isolation exercise. For example at the moment I'm doing dumbbell concentration curls once a week, and I have chosen a weight (22kg) that I can only perform about 8 reps with, but I will just keep the dumbbell at 22kg until I can perform more reps, even it takes me all year. What's the rush.
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